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.obj -> .sur converter |
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New version 1.1 BETA 1.2 (See attachment)
A series of tutorials can be found here, thanks to Skotty:
From the included info text: Quote: Thanks go to: From the included "How to use" text: Quote:
If you discover bugs please post them here. You can convert any geometry you like, e.g. using a poly reducer and then convert it. The disadvantage is that you will get many groups inside the .sur file. Roadmap (sorta): V1.0: Get basic collision working as flawlessly as possible V1.1: Include multipart support, some sort of intuitive gui for that V1.2: Some optional stuff which might be helpful, real hardpoint support, maybe read them from .cmp files. Support every feature of the .sur format. V1.3: Optional stuff which makes generation easier, things which came up during development and testing etc.
Posted on: 2011/2/11 4:56
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Re: .obj -> .sur converter |
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Starport Admin
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Sounds awesome! Now waiting for some real-world user reports
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Posted on: 2011/2/11 8:32
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aka chaosgrid http://www.freelancerserver.de https://www.moddb.com/mods/fwtow |
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Anonymous
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Re: .obj -> .sur converter |
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Anonymous-Anonymous
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Right, first question, why .obj files? Why not .cmp or am i missing something?
Posted on: 2011/2/11 9:39
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Re: .obj -> .sur converter |
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Starport Admin
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Because from what I get this is not a .sur generator, but rather a converter. Apparently, it can also generate a sur from non-convex geometry (aka the raw geometry from a .cmp) but that doesnt seem to be recommended.
So I guess it makes sense to pick the .obj format, because it is an open format supported by a lot of modeling programs. Actually, I think I should also stop developing the 3ds max exporter and make it a standalone .obj -> .cmp converter (would also get rid of the 3ds max versions compatability problems).
Posted on: 2011/2/11 10:36
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aka chaosgrid http://www.freelancerserver.de https://www.moddb.com/mods/fwtow |
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Re: .obj -> .sur converter |
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quick test this morning :
- import a .3ds from a hitbox i done - export it as .obj with default settings - convert it and get a .sur bubble not shrink wraped i'll do a test from a 3ds model this evening
Posted on: 2011/2/11 11:02
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Re: .obj -> .sur converter |
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Hi Schmackbolzen: Thanks for your great work, appreciated.
But I'm afraid I agree with Gibbon - converting many models to .obj is not something I am prepared to do. This method was not expected, and we didn't have a chance to tell you this before you put in so much effort. 1. Think of the other utilities that need extra steps, they aren't used as often as they should be, nor by so many modders. It will be a shame to continue with this project when it will not be used. 2. As you say "this is not what is in the vanilla files", we have incompatibility - and I lose interest. I don't want another "nearly OK" tool. If you need to automatically convert from internal MilkShape memory (model loaded) through .obj and then to .sur as an "internal" step without having the modeller do it, then that is OK. But I (we all) want a fully compatible, one-step tool, with the selectable options I listed earlier. I have defined the specification pretty well for everyone over the last year. Hardpoints must be read from the MilkShape memory, modellers should not be expected to re-write them into the exporter/converter by hand. Thanks if you decide to understand this and make it the way we want it. For me the ONLY criteria is that the generated sur file for any standard vanilla FL ship, say for example the Stiletto (bw_fighter), MUST be exactly the same as the original vanilla sur file, with all the same components. And it has to work, of course. If you decide not to, then I am sorry, and thank you for trying, but I won't use it very much (if at all), because I can already do this with existing MS tools and 3DSMax tools, and it is a pain now. Your utility will not make anything easier if you make it in the way you say. So many people criticised me for such a long time, and some even insulted me by accusing me of deliberately making bad surs for all this time, until I finally isolated and proved with help from adoxa that it was indeed caused by missing parts, just like Bejaymac used to tell us time and time again. And so all the surs we have made with these current sub-standard methods and tools are bad. So the criteria can only be a complete sur identical to the original for vanilla ships. Once we have this, surs for custom ships will automatically be in the same standard format too. Thanks for understanding my point of view.
Posted on: 2011/2/11 11:37
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"C" for "Caterpillar"... "Cool"... "Cheesey"! ![]() |
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Re: .obj -> .sur converter |
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Quote:
W0dk4 old friend - I was so excited about your exporter until you wrote this. If you do then I will lose interest in your cmp exporter for the same reasons as above. obj is a simple format, basically lists of vertices in plain text format. So yes it is easy but is also limited.
Posted on: 2011/2/11 11:44
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"C" for "Caterpillar"... "Cool"... "Cheesey"! ![]() |
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Re: .obj -> .sur converter |
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i'd prefer obj converters. you can export those files from any program, no losses at all (wavefront might be limited, max is not, just export obj and mat and youre ready to go). moreover, it makes us independant from the limits of ms3d and from the issues we know from the sur exporters and cmp exporter. no matter what program we use now, we can just save everything up as obj and can convert those to mesh libraries and surs as we wish, faster, better. export to obj is no step too much, you can do it with the modeler program you use.
your quote, Schmackbolzen, seems to tell us, that your converter does surs in the same way vanilla surs are done, too. though this is yet WIP it is already more than we ever had and probably became exactly what we have been waiting for. thank you. only thing is indeed, what gibbon said, a documentation on options would be helpful.
Posted on: 2011/2/11 13:49
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Re: .obj -> .sur converter |
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Gisteron:
Which part of this did you not understand? "- The tree of the bit section still is not the same as in vanilla files. That means depending on the geometry you can fly through if you try hard enough." What are you going to do when my ships do fly through it, accuse me of trying too hard to break the tool? And "You can help the tool if you put every convex geometry in a single group." defeats the objective entirely. I will repeat once more: "the criteria for this tool is the creation of a sur for a vanilla FL ship that is identical to the original sur". Nothing less will do because the new surs will then not be compatible. All components of the vanilla sur must be present. You are undermining the construction of what will be a good tool. If you are happy with this as it is, and think you are already creating good surs, then you already have the tools you need, so be happy, take a back and quiet seat, and let us get the tool we need. We do not yet have the tool we need.
Posted on: 2011/2/11 14:07
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"C" for "Caterpillar"... "Cool"... "Cheesey"! ![]() |
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Re: .obj -> .sur converter |
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Quote:
I can tell you that the surs of his converter are working great. After yesterdays tests I told Schmackbolzen that his surs are nearly perfect, but you can go trough them if you find a right place/try hard enough. However, I got some of his surs since some weeks and they work great. So my real-world user report gives a good mark for Schmackbolzens work until here ![]() Some comment to StarTraders post: The converter works best with already prepared convex meshes, thats what Schmackbolzen wrote and thats not the problem! Just use the convex tool of Milkshape and you won't have any trouble with that part. If I understood right you got some problems that his converter uses obj files. The fact is, that these files are supported by every 3d model program and converting a cmp to obj is not the problem, isn't it? Oh and, if you are not happy with "[...] put every convex geometry in a single group." I will tell you that this is normal for a lot of other games, for example the Source Engine.
Posted on: 2011/2/11 14:14
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Re: .obj -> .sur converter |
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*gives ST another carrot*
i didn't say its perfect or exactly what we need. but it is more than we ever had and is not the final version. i just don't start with seeking for the imperfections, i am just a bit enthusiastic and looking forward for this tool to become the very one we need. it probably, even likely will be, don't you think so? ![]()
Posted on: 2011/2/11 14:21
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Re: .obj -> .sur converter |
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To clarify some things:
Convex meshes for physics engines are absolutely normal! Skotty knows this e.g. from valves source engine. Every vanilla .sur is made out of convex meshes! The converter just makes sure the geometry is as the vanilla physics engine needs it. You can use non convex geometry, try it out. I even tested 3000 polygons, it does work! I know there is no documentation for the options for know, because it is not easy explain it, since I would have to explain the algorithm and mathematics behind it. I try to make it simple: First you should know that for every connected triangles a convex hull is being created. For the number: Imagine a vertex lies behind this convex hull and you enter the maximum distance allowed from the vertex to the corresponding hull polygon. For the checkbox: There are cases where no corresponding convex hull polygon is found. In this cases the maximum distance is infinity. That's why this option exists. If you are satisfied with the explanation I'll include it in the documentation. Concerning the .obj format: Normally you get only trouble with texture coordinates and materials. Both are not needed. The .obj parser is from my own 3D engine and tested against over 10 exporters. It should read nearly every file there is now. If there is an algorithm which can convert normal geometry to geometry consisting only out of convex elements I would try to implement it. But as far as I know not even the modeling programs are capable of that. Are there still things which are not clear now?
Posted on: 2011/2/11 15:23
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Re: .obj -> .sur converter |
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well, for the options explanations, it starts to be somewhat clear. could you prolly explain it like what the different options would result or should result in in the end. maybe some examples and a link to your coming post in the documentation.
Posted on: 2011/2/11 15:33
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Re: .obj -> .sur converter |
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The result is either you get the convex hull of the connected triangles or every triangle will be made double sided and put in a separate group (I called it splicing), which is convex, because a doubled sided triangle is convex. This way geometry is preserved, but you get more data (that's how vanilla does it!).
It would be best if you import the converted sur with Adoxas MS sur importer and examine the results. This should help you to understand. I will develop this tool further depending on your experience. So try to understand it first, I even might change the gui. I don't know how you guys are thinking so you'll have to help me with that ![]()
Posted on: 2011/2/11 15:46
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